FFXIV Thoughts: Defensive Tanks vs Damage Tanks

更新日：2018年7月8日

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Pattrick Vega より:

2018年6月29日 3:48 AM

DT has a nice voice to listen to when watching his videos. His content must have Shirked his voice cause its got the lead. HA! my jokes are lame

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- Taru TV より:
  
  2018年6月29日 4:15 AM
  
  OH LA LA, PATTRICK. <3
  
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Krummer より:

2018年6月29日 9:09 AM

I love healing and tanking in FFXIV exactly because you still do significant damage. I feel like thats just how the game is meant to be played. The tank stance is just another tool in the kit of a job and to know where it's useful is part of learning the job. You can just as well misstime any other CD or ability in the game.

I mostly play WHM at the moment, and when the whole group knows whats what, then there are periods of time where nobody needs active healing, even with the tank out of tank stance.

I also see it as a bit of "dynamic difficulty" of sorts. You can clear the content doing minimal damage as healer and maximum damage mitigation as tank and have a pretty easy time doing so and as you learn you gradually reduce defiance uptime for example.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind SE makeing content that requires more usage of the stances as long as it feels good to play.

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Matthew Harrington より:

2018年6月29日 11:23 AM

id like to see us loose stances altogether and just have enmity caked in to our role, and end the stupid debate altogether.

On topic though i think a tank should be free to do what ever they feel comfortable doing and not have to worry about strict dps checks ( outside of ultimate).

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- steee veee より:
  
  2018年7月3日 2:04 PM
  
  Matthew Harrington wow yeah make it boring af...SE don't listen to this retard please.
  
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Emeraldraven777 より:

2018年6月30日 9:12 AM

Raiding savage slowly teaches tanks and healers one rule: The only hp that matters is the difference between the next hit and zero. Mitigation while important, is not the end all beat all for anything other than basic content. Dps is important the more of it your party has over all the more deaths you can afford in the long run and the less individual players need to stress numbers. Its entirely a mindset thing.

As for ultimate fights even as a savage tank myself I know I don't have the numbers for them. Those fights are engineered for the high purple to orange parse players and require fairly strict party compositions. Ultimate fights are almost entirely inaccessible to midcore or lower statics for the most part. To put my rambling aside sure ultimate fights don't come out often but I'm sure the devs would rather release more accessible content in its place. The ultimate content as you mention is for maybe 1% of the playerbase.

If I were to strap a tinfoil hat on here and theorize what needs to happen it would have to be changing player mindsets. More dps checks in non savage content, some sort of tutorial or explanation that damage stances and spells aren't bad to use, little by little guide the playerbase toward understanding the importance of numbers.

Ramble over. Great video as always Taru.

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- Taru TV より:
  
  2018年6月30日 5:10 PM
  
  Good point. Midcore can definitely do ultimate, however, it's a small percentage as you said and will take months as opposed to weeks. If you don't disband or replace in that timeline then I'll be surprised.
  
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- Gorophorge より:
  
  2018年7月8日 2:24 PM
  
  I am sure the devs original creation of damage stances was to give tanks something to do during tank downtime (meaning when you aren't actively tanking a target) but as with any tools that are given to an individual, we learn how to use them outside of their intended use, I can use a screwdriver as a prybar for example to save money rather then purchasing an actual prybar, different executions but the same mindset is applied. The only way to fix this in the devs intended fashion is to make tanking more reactive, and less proactive, making tank stances necessary outside of first time prog, but I doubt that will ever happen given the casual playerbase
  
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GTetra Kai より:

2018年6月30日 9:22 AM

I'm one of those who came from WoW with a completely different mindset of what tanks should be. I still remember the struggle trying to get 102.6% defense and trying to push crits and crushing blows off the attack table. It was even worse when trying to play a prot pally with having to balance all the defense stats along with trying to fit in as much spell damage as possible just to be able to generate enough threat. That's the level of complexity I'm looking for in the role. FFXIV doesn't have that. That concept was probably one of the hardest things for me to grasp. Encounters are not made in the same fashion as other MMOs. Fights are heavily scripted and its no surprise when hard hitting attacks are inbound. Proper use of defensive cooldowns are more than enough to negate "tank busters" and damage invulnerability CDs are enough to trivialize certain mecahnics, ie. PLD using HG to negate a stack, WAR using HG to negate a double tank buster, etc.

I think the aversion to dps-tanks are people who don't have faith in their CDs and their healing team. I you're reading this and you're a tank-stance tank, just try using your dps stance and use your defensive CDs more often. It works. Especially if you're playing WAR since Defiance doesn't mitigate damage like Shield Oath and Grit.

As much as I love playing a dps with double the hp as the other dps, I'd much rather have content that requires the use of tank stances. However, with the direction this game is moving, it's probably not going to happen.

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- Taru TV より:
  
  2018年6月30日 5:11 PM
  
  Yeah man for sure. Like, I watch SCO now and then on YouTube and Twitch (method tank) and he's always doing these mythic + 5 mans which require kiting, solid positioning and all that jazz. Compare that to XIV where you basically face-roll mobs, the closest thing we have is HoH which can sometimes be gimmicky with slimes or rng explosions.
  
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Bjørn Behr より:

2018年6月30日 5:31 PM

Honestly i feel like theres no need for the tank stance. I rarely use it. On top of my head i use it to grab adds in o7s, but only for few aggro attacks. I guess dungeons will be pretty hard without tank stance though.

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Taru TV より:

2018年7月1日 7:09 PM

You are indeed the maddest tater!

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demonzero677 より:

2018年7月1日 11:33 PM

Here's my 2 cents on the matter. before that first and foremost fuck metas. the very concept of a meta for clearing content is insane. I've yet to see a piece of content that is specifically design to this this one specific ability from this one specific class where if you don't have it you can't do it. until that day comes, metas are at best a suggestion, at worst elitism.

But on to my 2 cents. As long as your tanks are handling their primary job within a fight, that being managing the boss's aggro and mitigating the heavy damage hits the boss does, I could give two shits less what stance they are using. If the tank feels they can keep the boss's aggro in Sword Oath, if they feel they can mitigate the tank busters effectively in Sword Oath (put whatever stance you want here, I do pally so I don't know the others that well) then more power too them. But I've done my fair share of Rabanasty and Lighthouse runs recently where the boss was going all over the place, jumping to DPS, throwing tank busters on healers, where adds were basically doing whatever they felt like and quite a few times I, as a machinist, had to force out enough damage on an add to aggro it just to position it before very vocally getting on ALL the tanks to do their damn job. In those cases, those tanks failed at their job period. I don't care about the 3 or 4% increase in damage they might have been able to add if it meant DPS were holding aggro and Healers were having to frantically heal a Machinist who was now tanking (BTW, doesn't end so well, just FYI)

So in short, If you're doing your job within the group, be it main tanking or off tanking and you're holding the boss's aggro, managing tank swaps, and mitigating the incoming damage and especially tank busters, then you're perfectly fine to be in sword oath all bloody day for all I care. But if the boss is turning to throw a tank buster at a healer or DPS, then your ass had better learn how to fucking tank first, and DPS second, because your few percent more damage pails in comparison to the DPS lost when a DPS dies.

Because at the end of the day yes, you as a tank ARE a meat shield, one clad in the heaviest armor who shrugs off damage that would send casters to their grave and you have amazing talents at pissing off everything that it hostile while doing noticeably less damage then all the other damage dealing classes. now get out there and do your job of pissing off everything that wants to make your healers lunch.

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bombastico16 より:

2018年7月3日 9:53 AM

If DPS ask tanks and healers to do damage, those DPS are trash and they arent doing their rotation right, even if they say they are the proest players in the game. let every role do their job and improve yours.

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- Safi Ella より:
  
  2018年7月3日 4:13 PM
  
  as a tank and healer myself, you can't help feeling useless just healing and standing, you have buff/dps skills to use them effectively, but if you are mainly a healer, your priority is to heal and keep everyone alive, if that is evident on a raid then those dps peeps doesn't have the right to demand extra dps from you
  
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Joey Cabrera より:

2018年7月3日 10:32 PM

I have nothing to add on what's already been said below besides this: If you are an OT in Shield Oath, Grit, or Defiance stance you are an idiot.

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- Taru TV より:
  
  2018年7月5日 7:20 PM
  
  Not seen that happen in a while.
  
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